Jesus and His Father are both a Jehovah
Introduction
The teachings of the CJC-LDS (Mormon) church concerning God in the creation have been standardized since 1916 with the “Doctrinal Exposition” prepared by Elder Talmage that the First Presidency and Twelve accepted. Source
This presentation is to compare this standardized version with the understanding of God in the creation that Brigham Young taught. And also, to compare it to teachings by Joseph explaining that a being with a physical body has power over a spirit without a body. And finally, to compare it to the scriptures, where many places Jesus is the Son of the Old Testament LORD, not this Jehovah Himself.
Elohim, Jehovah and Michael as taught today
The standardized version of God in the creation is that the earth was created by:
Elohim – He is resurrected, and the spirit Father of Jehovah and Michael, and of all mankind.
Jehovah – the Spirit of Jesus. He has never had a physical body.
Michael the Archangel – the spirit that becomes Adam. D&C 129:1 says angels have resurrected physical bodies, but he does not have one yet.
Holy Ghost – another spirit son of Elohim. He also has never had a physical body. He is not mentioned as a Creator, but would not all three members of the Godhead be involved?
One thing that is almost never mentioned is that Brigham Young was the one that memorized the original endowment given by Joseph in Nauvoo, improved it over time, and then in 1877 had it written down. So it is ironic to hear people say that anyone who has been to the temple knows that Brigham's Adam-God teachings are false.
I agree, however, that it was correct for the church to not authorize the Adam-God teachings of Brigham until the controversies over them are resolved. The faith must be built on Word of the Lord revelation. Neither the discourses of Brigham, nor the books and writings of Elder Talmage are guaranteed to be Word of the Lord revelation. Article of Faith 9 promises MANY more truths will be revealed. Revelation can bring to light things no human can just figure out.
So pray for revelation.
A Second Higher God in Heaven?
One problem with the current doctrine is that no scripture ever speaks about a Second God in Heaven that is more Mighty and High than Jehovah. In other words the endowment Elohim is never mentioned in scripture except possibly in Deut 32:8. Jesus must have claimed to be the "Son of Jehovah" not the Son of an unheard of Second God in Heaven higher than Jehovah. But since Jesus is spoken of by divine investiture as his Father, the Creator Jehovah, this has confused people.
Elohim, Jehovah, Michael as Brigham taught
How did Brigham understand God in the creation?
Elohim – He is a resurrected man, and the spirit Father of Jehovah and Michael.
Jehovah – Also a resurrected man. Thus he cannot be Jesus, unless Jesus had already lived as a mortal as the “multiple mortal probations” notion claims.
Michael the Archangel – Also a resurrected man. And the Father of spirits for this world. Jesus was the firstborn spirit of Michael. Brigham speaks of Elohim as the grandfather god.
Holy Ghost – In this one quote Brigham seems to be saying Michael became the Holy Ghost:
“It is true that the earth was organized by three distinct characters, namely, Eloheim, Yahovah, and Michael, these three forming a quorum, as in all heavenly bodies, and in organizing element, perfectly represented in the Deity, as Father [Eloheim], Son [Yahovah], and Holy Ghost [Michael].” --JD 1:51 Source
And it makes a lot of sense that Michael would be given the office of Holy Ghost after his death. Who better to be the Comforter of his spirit children? And the Spirit of Truth to teach them? And the Holy Spirit of Promise to seal their eternal covenants? Furthermore, having overcome the world and gained his own exaltation, and seen the judgment of the earth he lived on as a mortal, and progressed and learned since his mortal life, Michael would understand the learning and sophistries of all humans, and could handle the horrors of war and all corruptions.
The current doctrine that the Holy Ghost is a spirit son that has never lived in the flesh and overcame the world, is very hard to believe. He is a Comforter to those that have more experience in the flesh than he does? He has not proved himself and kept his Second Estate, (Abraham 3:25-26) and yet is teaching us how to do it? Would he be ready to fully understand all the languages and cultures of the world, and deal with the horrors of war and evil? Is a male spirit that has never had a body ready to see all the sexuality that goes on?
Does not Jesus speak as Jehovah?
Yes. However, he speaks as Jehovah AFTER his resurrection. Can there be two Jehovahs?
Jesus should become fully like and equal with his Father. That is what sons do. Jesus directly says this to the Nephites:
“Behold, I am he that gave the law, and I am he who covenanted with my people Israel... ” (3 Nephi 15:5)
Yet Jesus even as a man spoke as Jehovah because Jehovah put his Name in him just as He put his Name in the Angel that spoke to Moses in the burning bush.
"And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed." – Exodus 3:2
Even though he was an Angel he immediately spoke as if he were Jehovah to Moses.
“Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.” – Exodus 3:6
And there are other times in the OT when an angel speaks as if he is God: Gen 16 with Hagar, Gen 31 with Jacob, Judges 2 to Israel; Judges 6 with Gideon, and Judges 13 with Manoah and his wife.
Also in Revelation 22:7 the angel first mentioned in Revelation 1:1 is speaking as if he were the resurrected Jesus, who now is equal with his Father. But when John goes to worship him, the angel tells him not to and tells John that he is a fellowservant of Jesus just as John is. But then the angel goes back to speaking as if he is Jesus in verses 12 and 13.
So Jesus speaking by divine investiture as his Father simply does not prove Jesus himself is the Creation and OT Jehovah. And there are a multitude of evidence against Jesus being the Creation and OT Jehovah as this article shows.
Joseph's revelations reject the trinity notion that Jesus has a “dual nature” and is a man and one of three incomprehensible “Persons” of an immaterial, body-less “Spirit Essence” that exists without cause and creates time and space and all things and beings out of nothing.
Instead, revelation to Joseph shows that Jesus is the same kind of being as we are – an eternal intelligence in eternal progression:
“When the Savior shall appear we shall see him as he is. We shall see that he is a man like ourselves.” --D&C 130:1
Brigham taught that each earth has its own Savior.
“President Young said there never was any world created & peopled nor never would be but what would be redeemed by the shedding of the blood of the savior of that world.” – Wilford Woodruff Journal, May 12, 1867 Source
This makes sense since each earth with children of God sent to it also has its own Adam:
“And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many.” – Moses 1:34
Since both Jesus and his Father have their own thrones, then are not both Saviors of worlds?
“To him that overcometh will I [Jesus] grant to sit with me in MY THRONE, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in HIS THRONE.” --Rev 3:21
But if Jesus is in eternal progression, and was not exalted with all power until after his resurrection, how can the scriptures say he creates all things and is the same forever? When one speaks of Jesus in his exalted state they also speak of all those that he is ONE with. Collectively the lineage of Jehovahs do create all things and is the same forever. Because of their perfect unity they speak, and are spoken of, as an infinite, eternal, unchangeable Jehovah.
The Greek words “en” and “dia” in Colossians 1:16 do not have to mean Jesus created all things. Notice these possible meanings showing that God created the earth for the sake of Jesus:
"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For EN [after, because of, for the sake of] him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created DIA [on account of, by reason of, for the sake of, because of] him, and for him:" – Col 1:15-16
All the other New Testament verses that seem to say Jesus created all things also use these two words and can be understood in the same way. When Jesus speaks as the Creator he is speaking by divine investiture as his Father, and for the entire Elohim. And how could Jesus be the Creator over a physical world if he was still a Spirit that had never been given a physical body and kept his Second Estate?
Is a Resurrected Body needed to be a Creator?
A fundamental problem with the present doctrine that was formalized by Elder Talmage is that it openly contradicts the following teachings that Joseph gave:
“They who have Tabernacles have power over those who have not.” – 16 May 1841 Source
“All spirits that have bodies have power over those that have not – hence men have power over devils, etc.” – 30 January 1842 Source
“Salvation is nothing more or less than to triumph over all our enemies and put them under our feet. And when we have power to put all enemies under our feet in this world and a knowledge to triumph over all evil spirits in the world to come then we are saved as in the case of Jesus. He was to reign until he had put all enemies under his feet and the last enemy was death. ... No person [including Jesus] can have this Salvation except through a tabernacle.” – 14 May 1843 Source
“The spirits in the eternal world are like the Spirits in this world, when those spirits have come into this world and received tabernacles, then died, and again have risen and received glorified bodies, they will have an ascendancy over the spirits who have no bodies or kept not their first estate, like the Devil.” – 21 May 1843 Source
“As man is liable to enemies there as well as here, it is necessary for him to be placed beyond their power in order to be saved. This is done by our taking bodies (keeping our first estate) and having the power of the resurrection pass upon us – whereby we are enabled to gain the ascendancy over the disembodied spirits.” – 21 May 1843 Source
Since a tabernacled spirit has power over spirits without a body, how could Jesus as an un-tabernacled Spirit be the Most High God Jehovah? Angels with resurrected bodies, and even humans would have power and ascendancy over him. He would not have all his enemies under his feet. He would be on par with other spirits that also have no physical body. And certainly this would be true of Michael who is not the Savior.
Joseph also taught:
"There is no other God in heaven but that God who has flesh and bones." – 5 Jan 1841 Source Source
All believers in Old Testament times worshiped Jehovah, with His throne in Heaven, as the One God of Israel. Were they worshiping Jesus in heaven without flesh and bones? Not unless Joseph taught false doctrine in this quote.
Blessings GIVEN to Jesus AFTER his resurrection:
" I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your NAME, the NAME [Jehovah] you GAVE me, so that they may be one as we are one." – John 17:11 NIV
"And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly EXALTED him, and GIVEN him a NAME [Jehovah] which is above every name:” – Philippians 2:8-9
“The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. Him hath God EXALTED with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.” --Acts 5:30-31
"And [the resurrected] Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is GIVEN unto me in heaven and in earth." --Matthew 28:18
You cannot GIVE someone something that they already have. You cannot EXALT someone who is already exalted. These verses are saying that these blessings were GIVEN by God to Jesus AFTER his resurrection. So Jesus was still a Son, progressing grace for grace before his resurrection and could not have been the Exalted Jehovah that created our earth.
The following scripture from the book of Abraham shows that spirits must prove themselves when they take on this mortal “Second Estate”. This must also be true of Jesus as he set the example for us:
“And we will PROVE THEM them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them; And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who KEEP their SECOND ESTATE shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.” --Abraham 3:25-26
In the Bible the Messiah Jesus is Not Jehovah
Even though the resurrected Jesus speaks as Jehovah, there are no scriptures that directly say that Jesus was the OT Jehovah. Some will argue that in John 8:58 Jesus says he is the Exodus 3:14 “I AM”. But there are numerous problems with this claim.
For instance, later in John 10:24 the Jews ask Jesus if he is the Christ. And again, in Matthew 24:64 the High Priest asks him. If he had already claimed to be Jehovah, they would not ask him that since the Jews have never believed the Messiah would be Jehovah come in the flesh. The Jews had asked Jesus this: “... Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?” (John 8:57) So Jesus told them that he existed before Abraham – not that his Name was “I AM”.
The Greek two word phrase “ἐγὼ εἰμί” (pronounced “ego eimi”) is in the New Testament over 700 times and in no other case refers to the Great “I AM”. Exodus 3:14 in the Greek Septuagint has “ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν” as the Name of Jehovah, which translates as “I am the Being”. So there is no precedence in using “ego eimi” alone as his Name. There are several Bible translations that translate verse 58 like this: “Truly, truly I tell you,” said Jesus, “I have existed before Abraham was born.”
If Jesus had claimed to be Jehovah in John 8:58 they would need no other evidence. The Jews killed Stephen for blasphemy who did not claim to be Jehovah or the Messiah.
YHWH (Jehovah in English) was the God and Father of Israel
There is very minor evidence in Deut. 32:8-9 that Jehovah had a Father “Elyon” (Most High) over Him. In all the rest of the OT the One God and Father that the Israelites spoke of and prayed to was Jehovah.
In the Hebrew scriptures Jehovah is called the “Father” of Israel multiple times. (Deut 32:6; Ps 89:26; Isa 63:8-10,16; 64:8; Mal 1:6)
And prayers were offered up to Jehovah multiple times. (Gen 18:23-26; Gen 32:9; Exodus 32:11,31; 33:12; Numbers 12:13; Deut 3:24; 9:18,26; Judges 16:28; 1 Sam 1:10; 2:1; 1 Kings 3:7; 8:23,28; 17:20; 18:36-39; 2 Kings 6:15-18; 19:15; 20:2; 2 Chr 20:3; Neh 1:5; 9:3; Psalms 3-7;13;23;25;26;51; Daniel 9:4; Jonah 2:2)
An English reader of the OT may not see this because our OT uses the term “LORD”. But in Hebrew the majority of the time it does not use "LORD" but uses the Divine Name (הוה) that in English is Jehovah.
When Jesus taught his disciples to pray, "Our Father which art in Heaven..." he could not be teaching them to pray to him on earth. It would have been a violation of the First Commandment for Israel to pray to and worship any other God than YHWH (Jehovah). So Jesus was teaching them to pray to Jehovah, as they had always prayed, but calling him Father.
Jesus is the Messiah, not Jehovah
The Hebrew word for Messiah is mashiach, meaning “anointed one”. Mashiach is translated into the Greek word christos, and then into the English word Christ. Saul, David, Solomon and five others were spoken of as a “mashiach”. The term identifies a specially “anointed” servant of Jehovah. Jesus, like all other anointed ones, was anointed a servant by Jehovah, not by himself.
Jesus quotes Isaiah 61:
“"The Spirit of the Lord (יהוה) God is upon me; because the LORD (יהוה) hath anointed me [Jesus] to preach good tidings unto the meek...” (Luke 4:18–19)
In the Hebrew Jesus was reading, it does not use a term that means LORD but uses the divine name יהוה that in English is Jehovah. Jesus cannot be the anointed one AND the one that anoints him.
As the suffering Servant of Jehovah, Jesus in Isaiah 53, cannot be the Jehovah who bruises him:
"Yet it pleased the LORD [יהוה = Jehovah] to bruise him [Jesus]; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin...”
– Isaiah 53:10
In Matthew 22 Jesus quotes Psalm 110:1:
“The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.”
In the original Hebrew, the word translated as “LORD” in this verse is יהוה (Jehovah). In Matthew 22 Jesus points out to some Pharisees that David speaks of Christ as “my Lord”. And then Jesus points out that if Christ is the Lord of David how can he be the son of David? No one had an answer. But Psalm 110:1 also tells us that since “my Lord” is the Christ, then the Christ is NOT Jehovah. Because it says,
“Jehovah said unto my (David's) Lord (the Christ), Sit thou at my right hand...”
The New Testament is full of quotes saying Jesus is now on the “right hand” of the Father. And we are to believe that the Father is not Jehovah, but a God named Elohim that is basically never mentioned in scripture?
"Son of God" means "Son of Jehovah"
Jesus and others multiple times gave testimony that he was the “Son of God”. The ONLY God of Israel is the one with the name Jehovah. So everyone would think that the God that Jesus claimed to be the Son of must be Jehovah. Would not Jesus be responsible to clarify this matter to everyone: what God is he the Son of if he himself is Jehovah, the God of Israel? But Jesus never speaks of his Father as a God that is not Jehovah.
Who is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob: Jesus or the Father of Jesus?
“And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is My NAME for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.” – Exodus 3:15
In the original Hebrew, as usual, it does not use a word that means LORD in this verse. It uses the NAME Jehovah. That is why He says, “this is my NAME forever...” So Exodus 3:15 clearly identifies Jehovah as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
The New Testament teaches that Jesus is the SON of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
"The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his SON Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go." --Acts 3:13
This is a very straightforward matter. It cannot be any more clear. The Bible teaches, as plain as day, that the man Jesus was the “Son” of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. And the Bible teaches, as plain as day, that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is the one called Jehovah in English. So the Bible teaches, as plain as day, that the man Jesus was the Son of the Old Testament Jehovah.
Brigham in this quote teaches that Jesus is the SON of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
"We may ask them the question, "Do you believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? … Well that is the very God that we, the Latter Day Saints are serving. He is our Father, He is our God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ whom the tribe of Judah discard, heaping ridicule upon his name." --August 4,1867 Utah Historical Quarterly LINK
So Brigham is teaching the same as the New Testament that Jesus is the Son of Jehovah.
More evidence Jesus is the Son of the Creator and Old Testament Jehovah
All of the Ante-Nicene Fathers taught that Jesus was the SON of the God of the OT. Many were taught by the original apostles or by someone who was. David Bercot, an expert in ANF writings, explains this on YouTube: LINK (4:18 to 11:42)
And here are three more scriptures, of many, many more, that show that the Father of Jesus is the OT Jehovah:
Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, he of whom you say, ‘He is our God,’ --John 8:54 NRSV
In this verse Jesus says that his Father is the one that the Jews say is their God. This can only mean Jehovah (יהוה ) is his Father, who is mentioned 6828 times in the Hebrew Bible as the God of Israel.
“He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:” ...... --Luke 1:32
This revelation to Mary concerning her future son teaches that Jesus is the “Son” of the Highest. Psalm 83:18 in Hebrew (and other verses) say that יהוה (Jehovah) is the “Most High” God.
D&C 109:4 prays “Holy Father, in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of thy bosom...” and in 33 times of invoking God, Jehovah is used 3 times. (verses 42, 56 and 68) D&C 109 is a prayer to Jehovah in the name of His Son Jesus Christ. In D&C 110 the resurrected Jesus is a Jehovah and thus speaks as Jehovah.
Jesus is not Jehovah in the book of Moses
The book of Moses has more detail than in Genesis but many passages in it are identical, or nearly identical, to Genesis.
And in Genesis whenever it says “LORD God” in the Hebrew it does not use a word that mean Lord, but uses the divine NAME that in English is Jehovah.
So this shows that when the book of Moses speaks of the Lord God in nearly INDENTICAL passages as Genesis it has to be Jehovah speaking.
And repeatedly the Lord God in the Book of Moses speaks of his “only begotten Son”. And we know this is speaking of Jesus. So the book of Moses, when considering the original Hebrew, reveals that Jesus is the “Son” of Jehovah.
For example:
Book of Genesis
“And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:...” – Genesis 3:22
Book of Moses
“And I, the Lord God, said unto mine Only Begotten: Behold, the man is become as one of us to know good and evil; ...” – Moses 4:28
In the original Hebrew of the above quote from Genesis the English “LORD God” is “Yehovah' Elohim”. See for yourself: Source "Yehovah'” is the Hebrew word that is Jehovah in English.
So, for the Bible and book of Moses to be consistent, the “LORD God” in Moses 4:28-29 must also be Jehovah. So Moses 4:28 is saying:
“And I, Jehovah, said unto mine Only Begotten [Jesus]: Behold, the man is become as one of us to know good and evil...”
And there are verses in every chapter of the Book of Moses that when compared to the identical passages in the Hebrew book of Genesis show that the LORD God is Jehovah . And in the same chapter the LORD God, who is Jehovah, speaks of His Only Begotten Son, or His Son, who we know is Jesus. In chapter 7 of the book of Moses it names the Only Begotten as “Jesus Christ” in verse 50. So every chapter of the book of Moses has verification that Jesus is the "Son" of the Old Testament Jehovah.
Jesus is not Jehovah in the book of Abraham
In the Book of Abraham he receives revelation from Jehovah.
"And his voice was unto me: Abraham, Abraham, behold, my name is Jehovah, and I have heard thee, and have come down to deliver thee..." --Abraham 1:16
Jehovah is also called the "Lord" in the Book of Abraham:
"Now the Lord had said unto me: Abraham, get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father’s house, unto a land that I will show thee." --Abraham 2:3
"For I am the Lord thy God; I dwell in heaven; the earth is my footstool; ... My name is Jehovah, and I know the end from the beginning;..." --Abraham 2:7-8
And in the Book of Abraham the Lord, who is Jehovah, chooses one like unto the Son of Man. This clearly is speaking of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
"And the Lord [Jehovah] said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man [Christ]: Here am I, send me. And another [Lucifer] answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first." --Abraham 3:27
So clearly in the Book of Abraham Jesus is not Jehovah, but the one that Jehovah sent.
Parallels between Jehovah and Jesus
Jehovah God in the Old Testament
I AM (Exodus 3:14–15; Isaiah 48:12)
The Shepherd (Psalm 23:1)
The Light (Psalm 27:1)
The Rock (Psalm 18:2)
Ruler of all (Isaiah 9:6)
Judge of all nations (Joel 3:12)
The Bridegroom (Isaiah 62:5; Hosea 2:16)
God’s Word never passes away (Isaiah 40:8)
The Sower (Jeremiah 31:27; Ezra 34:9)
First and the Last (Isaiah 48:12)
Jesus’ Reference to Himself
I AM (John 8:58)
(Jesus did not really claim to be the Exodus 3:14 “I AM”)
The Shepherd (John 10:11)
The Light (John 8:12)
The Rock (Matthew 7:24)
Ruler of all (Matthew 28:18)
Judge of all (John 5:22)
The Bridegroom (Matthew 25:1)
Jesus’ words never pass away (Mark 13:31)
The Sower (Matthew 13:3–9)
First and the Last (Revelation 1:17–18)
How can the above parallels be explained? Very simple. Jesus does become the Jehovah for this earth. Even as his Father is the Jehovah that created this earth. Like begets like. A son becomes fully equal and fully like his father. Everything that is said about the Father of Jesus, who is the creation and Old Testament Jehovah, fully applies to Jesus after his resurrection.
Conclusions
How could Jesus be the Jehovah that created our earth if he was only a Spirit, and thus resurrected angels and even humans had power over him? How could Jesus be the Most High and Almighty God before he was GIVEN the NAME above all other names (Jehovah) AFTER his resurrection? And before he was EXALTED AFTER his resurrection? And before he was GIVEN all power in heaven and earth AFTER his resurrection?
Those that continue to teach that Jesus was the creation and OT Jehovah are simply naked and exposed. Once you see it, you can't un-see it. The evidence against that teaching is so overwhelming that it is hard to understand how it has been perpetuated so long without being seriously questioned by faithful scholars and priesthood holders.
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